What do you think? I have heard different things from different people -- is AFI punk? Was it ever punk???

its hard to really define what punk is ... are we talking pop/punk, punk/rock.. its almost like asking the same thing about what is ROCK. Did you ever notice how PUNK is hardly even an option when you're submitting music to places as a genre?

and yet we still survive and thrive! we have an underground network that includes Hussieskunk radio and a World wide scene that refuses to die.
As for AFI, well there are no hard and fast rules and shouldn't be, I like AFI myself, back in the day we in the UK all used to follow bands like Souixie and the Banshees, Bauhaus and Southern Death Cult who all came from the punk scene.
Whatever anyone thinks we must all avoid becoming punk fundamentalists creating rules and regulations etc x

We here think it's a state of mind and matter. Do what you like, fuck the rest. If it works great, if it don't great! Most of the time it seems to me that punk aligns itself with self satisfaction! If you can DIY and it works...that's punk.

Is AFI punk? We think so! They weren't just handed the celebrity on a plate. They earned it. They did what worked and kept their integrity. Just because something reaches a critical mass that makes it 'mainstream' doesn't take away from what got it there.

I definitely agree that AFI is punk and will continue to be punk as long as they don't sell out to mainstream RAP like Ozzie.

When did Ozzie sell out to rap? I think I missed that episode...

eh I think they're on the border line between emo and punk, I only sorta like their first album and thats it.

Quoted from infanpunk I definitely agree that AFI is punk and will continue to be punk as long as they don't sell out to mainstream RAP like Ozzie.

Are you serious?  Have you ever even heard AFI's older material?  They have completely gentrified their sound to fit such that the mainstream will like them.  AFI sold out HARD.

And yeah, I think they started out as hardcore, moved to melodic hardcore, and then became darkish pop-rock.

no...no...I'm fucking serious, just like my little bullshit yipee-fucking-yea icon over there on the left says.  Yeah, I feel they're still punk.  I feel that any band that was considered punk, emo, ska, screamo, indie, grunge, alternative, and so on and so forth will continue to be so until they sell out to RAP.  Case in point; Ozzie allowed some fucking douche-bag gansta rapper to swipe the Crazy Train Intro.  Remember Queen's Under Pressure and that fag Vanilla Ice's Ice Ice Baby;  Queen may not have been punk but at least they had the  fucking balls to sue Ice's bitch ass.  As of late, I haven't heard AFI doing anything that would constitute as my definition of selling out.  Remember No Doubt, they were in the ska genre until Stefani's retarded ass sold out to that fucked-up R&B dogshit.  No, AFI did not sell out.  Hopefully, Fall Out Boy will follow suit and not sell out to RAP, however I have a STRONG feeling that it's coming for them.  We'll see.  

Let's look at what happened here.

AFI started small and appealed mostly to the hardcore punk community.

They got pretty big on Nitro records, if I recall correctly, and then when they signed to a major label, they put out "Sing the Sorrow," which was a pop-rock record.  AFI clearly made their sound more suitable to the mainstream audience to make money for themselves and their record label.  I don't think Sing the Sorrow is a bad record, necessarily, but it's definitely a move for the more mainstream, and definitely indication that AFI did, in fact, sell out.

Quoted from infanpunk no...no...I'm fucking serious, just like my little bullshit yipee-fucking-yea icon over there on the left says.  Yeah, I feel they're still punk.  I feel that any band that was considered punk, emo, ska, screamo, indie, grunge, alternative, and so on and so forth will continue to be so until they sell out to RAP.  Case in point; Ozzie allowed some fucking douche-bag gansta rapper to swipe the Crazy Train Intro.  Remember Queen's Under Pressure and that fag Vanilla Ice's Ice Ice Baby;  Queen may not have been punk but at least they had the  fucking balls to sue Ice's bitch ass.  As of late, I haven't heard AFI doing anything that would constitute as my definition of selling out.  Remember No Doubt, they were in the ska genre until Stefani's retarded ass sold out to that fucked-up R&B dogshit.  No, AFI did not sell out.  Hopefully, Fall Out Boy will follow suit and not sell out to RAP, however I have a STRONG feeling that it's coming for them.  We'll see.

Okay, wow.  Upon having read this again I have to say that I am absolutely appalled with your lack of understanding regarding what you're talking about.

First of all, do you have any clue what "selling out" means?  Selling out is making a move that is solely an effort to gain more money.  AFI has consistently moved from smaller to bigger labels and, with each switch, made their sound more appealing to a mainstream audience.  Since the correlation is too strong to really call it coincidence, I would say that money had a HUGE influence in the change of their sound.  Your definition of selling out is horribly flawed.

Second, No Doubt was never ska.  They were a cheap third-wave-ska ripoff.  Before you start placing music within genres, know what you're talking about and do a little research on your genre names.

Third, to even suggest that Fall Out Boy has not sold out would absolutely laugable in its falsehood.  Fall Out Boy plays the music they do to make money.  Plus, even considering them anything close to punk (or even pop-punk, really) is nothing short of a cardinal sin in the punk world.  I guess you wouldn't know that, because you don't listen to punk (judging by your post in the "favorite bands" thread), but Fall Out Boy is not punk or even pop-punk.  Fall-out boy is pop-rock.  If you want to talk about that further, I'd be happy to.  I'm by no means a punk rock guru, but I know my fair share about the genre and its history, and I'd be happy to explain it all to you.

Fourth, do you really think it's cool in the world of punk rock to sue people because they use your music in other music?  If you had any understanding of punk, you'd know that such a thing is pretty much impossible.  Punk bands throughout the ages have copied each other NUMEROUS times, partially because of the necessary simplicity (and, thus, small scope of chord progressions and complexity) of punk rock.  Plus, suing someone for using something you wrote, especially if you're as famous as Ozzy fucking Osbourne (and, thus, a HUGE amount of people already know the material is yours) would be LAUGHABLY bourgeois.  Seriously, if you think that you could be an accepted part of the punk rock community after you sued someone for "stealing" your music, you are sorely mistaken.

Lastly, I think you should watch your fucking mouth.  If you want to use the terms "fag," and "bitch," you'd better be ready to answer to all the "fags" and "bitches" out there that you will piss off that are willing to put you in your place.  I'm a pacifist, plus I think internet fights are stupid, so I'm not going to go on the whole "MEHH ILL BEET U UP" thing, but seriously, that shit is beyond offensive coming from kids like you.

First of all, if you KNEW what you were talking about, then you would understand that the whole punk scene started on the premise of revolution.  Revolution means speaking out for what you totally believe in and not trying to censor each other because of it being "offensive" i.e. Tipper Gore's foundation of censoring music which is where the Parental Advisory sticker on album covers came from; remember that?  PUNK IS OFFENSIVE!  If you will also recall, most of the punk community do talk in the EXACT manner that I speak in.  It has been ingrained in my vocabulary from birth and so shall it be until death doth part me from this tired, cruel world...

Secondly, before you start judging, I would definitely do more research into your alleged subject matter, ME.  I am 30 years old with a wife and two kids and therefore do not constitute as your contemporary definition of a kid.  I am a certified Airframe and Powerplant mechanic as if YOU would understand the tenacity, dedication, and true grit that it took to gain such a license.  I have served in the USMC and fought in Iraq, I HAVE SAVED the lives of Iraqi civilians, been shot at by mortars, missiles, machine guns, etc. I wonder what you have done for your country lately.  I imagine just bitch at how awful and terrible that you MUST live in a country that is so WAR oriented.  Ha, YOUR embodiment of yourself must be horrible disfigured; poor, poor, pacifist.  Oh yeah, did I mention that I also have a B.S. in Software Engineering?  MUST HAVE LEFT THAT OUT!  Another thing, have you ever heard of spell check?

Furthermore, your definition of "selling out" is sadly misconstrued.  WHO in there right mind would turn down a chance to make more money; if your definition of "selling out" was correct, then I guarantee that YOU have sold out I know I have.  No, if you were present during the 1990's (which I seriously doubt) then you would remember a certain person that seriously discussed the implications of selling out.  Selling out is changing YOUR style to the acceptable fashion trends of society.  My personal belief is that changing your music to fit a certain genre would be selling out.  Anyway, it’s the fans that decide whether you live or die, just as in a corporate culture, if you lose you consumer base, YOU AIN'T GOT SHIT!

Lastly, if I have offended any "fags" or "bitches" out there, I FOUGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM!  Therefore, I will be willing to die for what I believe in and as a consequence of this, I have no fear.  If you would like to hear a more intelligent definition of selling out, then I would suggest that you talk to Matt, the propriety of HussieSkunk.com.  He has introduced me to a cornucopia of insightful comments and has continued to be the true embodiment of a PUNK connoisseur.

One more thing, (as if your feable recollection could comprehend the last five minutes) you started this Internet posting dual.

Sell out... That's tough! We think selling out is when the fan gives up on the band! We don't mean to turn this around and pin it on the fans, but don't you want to see your favorite band succeed? Going mainstream and appealing to a broader audience is success in this industry. As long as the band maintains it's right to create the music that got them to a mainstream or popular sound, we think that's not selling out. Bands that give in and relinquishing the credits to write, produce and engineer their own work are sell outs. At that point it makes us think they no longer wish to make music on their own terms. That's selling out!

--This came from the HussieSkunk Administrator--

This is an intelligent, well thought post by someone who has considered this issue long before you or I.  And, in essence, is the general epitome of what the ideal of "selling out" has become.

I only started this "duel" because I disagree with the idea that AFI hasn't sold out, and, what's more, if you talked to anyone else who has a clue what punk rock is, they would agree with me.

Also, I don't know about punk?  You're the one who listens to Fall Out Boy, if I recall correctly.  I'm no punk rock guru, but I have a sneaking suspicion that with the amount of time I've spent listening to and learning about punk that I've got more than enough knowledge to cover my ass to most people.

Okay, now to actually address what you have to say.

Punk was not started as a revolution.  Maybe a musical revolution, but punk started in New York City with bands like Richard Hell, Television, Patti Smith, et cetera, as a response to the hippie movement.  Then the Sex Pistols and the Ramones changed the way punk looked and maybe some of the seeming things behind it (Don't be fooled, The Sex Pistols were never anarchists), but it never made punk about revolution.  Hardcore punk was more revolutionary than standard punk was, in terms of how the genres were birthed, but neither were formed around the premise of social revolution.  Of course, there is a multitude of bands in each that advocate social revolution, but neither genre is inherently revolutionary in a social sense.

Why am I giving you punk rock history?  I should be asking you to give this to me, if you're so confident that you know more about punk than I do.

Anyway, moving on...

Revolution means doing what you think is necessary to change society.  Only the stupid "punk" bands went about that by saying offensive shit.  Dead Kennedys were revolutionary because they were against the way that America works.  Shit, I saw Jello Biafra (the subject of Tipper Gore's lawsuit, if you didn't know) speak about American society a few weeks ago.  Jello Biafra ran for Mayor of San Francisco in the 1980's with a hilariously-mocking (and, yet, very insightful) campaign platform and came in fourth place of ten candidates.  Dead Kennedys wrote songs (at least one, "California Uber Alles," the riff of which they recycled once or twice) modeled after Hitler Youth songs to add accusations of Fascism against the songs' subjects.  They weren't revolutionary because they had artwork with penises on the inside of one album, they were revolutionary because they worked outside of social norms to change society.

You trying to tell me what "revolution" means is like me talking to you about what it is to be a Marine.  I have never been a marine just like it seems to me that you've never been a revolutionary.  As an anarchist (Not a stupid "anarchist" that believes in Chaos, but a real anarchist), I know pretty well what revolution means.  Stupid "punk" bands like The Sex Pistols being rude and saying "fuck" on TV wasn't revolutionary.  Anarchist punk bands that have systems of mutual support and anti-capitalist messages are revolutionary.

But this isn't about revolution, it's about punk and selling out.

Selling out is not a term that can be used without context.  Of course we all do things just for money.  That's why we have jobs.  Selling out is making "music" or "art" (I put them in parentheses, because sell-out "art" is not art at all) solely to make money, or changing one's music or art in an attempt to make money.  The fact of the matter is that AFI, through their progression, has changed in an attempt to make money.  Though I am anti-capitalist, I understand that we live in a capitalist society, and, in that sense, I will never condemn an honest band that makes good music for making money.  What I will do, however, is condemn a band that does what they do specifically for money.  It makes for shitty music.

Your assertion on the definition of selling out is essentially the same as my definition.  The problem if that you understand the definition from an incorrect angle.  Changing to fit a genre doesn't mean making your song into a rap beat, it means changing the way your band plays music to sound more appealing to a mainstream audience for money.

And, for the record, I was present during the early 1990's.  I was pretty young, but I was here.

You see, the mainstream doesn't like to be challenged.  Ever listen to the radio?  It's not challenging.  There is nothing on the radio that sounds harsh or overly angry, or over-distorted or ESPECIALLY revolutionary.  The most revolutionary thing you'll hear on the radio is John Mayer's song about "waiting on the world to change," which is the exact OPPOSITE of revolutionary.  If you're so adamant about punk being revolutionary, even after I've given you the history on it, just take a look at AFI now.  Revolutionary?  Hardly.  Even when they started they weren't revolutionary.  They were just another hardcore punk band at that point.

I may have asserted that you were a kid, and for that I apologize, but the fact that you're a marine and fought for the U.S. has no pertinence to anything having to do with punk.  Are you seriously trying to assert yourself over me because you're a Marine?  Just because you're a marine, it doesn't know you know anything more about punk than I do.  What's more, I don't have any desire to support America.  This isn't a political conversation, but I am anarchist, anti-capitalist, and I think that the way the United States interacts with and influences the world is absolutely criminal.  I'm glad you do what you believe in, because we've all got our beliefs, but I do not fight for "my country."  Fighting for the United States does not mean fighting for freedom.  I won't knock you for fighting for what you believe in.  However, I also do what I believe in.  I'm not a coward just because I don't fight in wars.  Cops have threatened me with personal violence, and they've ridden motorcycles into me and those protesting around me.  Those may not be mortar shells, but when a cop holding a baton tells you that if you take another step he will use it on you, it's not exactly nothing to worry about.

Oh yeah, and the fact that you're a marine doesn't mean you know anything about punk.  Furthermore, the very fact that you focused most of your post on that fact just tells me that you're puffing out your chest because I've challenged you, and you don't really have any clue as to what you're talking about, which you've demonstrated pretty well, already.

Also, as a marine, do you really want revolution?  Fighting to protect a government's values doesn't really indicate a desire for revolution.

And yes, I've heard of spellcheck.  I don't really need it much, though, because I'm really a pretty good speller.  Just having skimmed over my posts in this thread, I haven't made any spelling errors.  If I have, feel free to point them out to me.

But look; my spelling, however good or bad, has nothing to do with punk rock or what I know about it.  If you want to debate punk rock, let's do it, but if you're going to try to attack my spelling, which is pretty god-damned good, you clearly don't know your shit enough to debate me on it.









I'm putting this apart from the rest of my post, because I want it to stand out.  Your definition of selling out is incorrect.  There are more of you than there are of me, so I'm going to get drowned out from the rest of you, but you are wrong.  I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just telling you what I know.  I'm not, by any means, new to punk rock, either.  I help run http://www.ncpunkonline.com and I'm an admin on the forum there.  Your definition of selling out is incredibly narrow, and lacks the essence of what it really is to sell out.  Yeah, you guys are 30 and I'm 19, so you obviously know more than I do about what selling out is and what punk rock is and blahblahblah.  Whatever.  I'm not trying to start fights (though I do get pretty pissed off hearing people say shit like "fags," and "bitches," and it's no better coming from someone who's supposed to be fighting for my "freedom" than it is from some dumb kid), I'm just telling you what I know.  If you don't like it, you don't have to believe it.  Whatever.  You can keep listening to Fall Out Boy and calling them punk if you want, too.  Whatever floats your boat.  You can go unchallenged just like the rest of the mainstream that listens to them and thinks it's punk.

So yeah, basically all either of us has gotten out of this is offended.  You at my challenging your idea of selling out and me at your apparent need to make yourself look authoritative to get out of arguing your points in any depth.  Didn't mean to piss you off, but I call things like I see them, and that's what's happening here.  I didn't join this forum to fight, I joined it to contribute to another punk rock community.  If you're going to get defensive when I tell you that you're wrong about something, you're never going to learn anything.  It's unhealthy to go unchallenged; it makes for stagnancy, antiquation, and ignorance.  Ironically enough, that's why punk initially died.

I started reading and got a headache from all the pissing.

Simple. Afi's first album was punk. After that..MTV and the music industry shifted,and Afi got sucked into it.

Most musicians play to get laid and be rock stars. However a few do it for something else. When MTV leans towards what the kids are into, then it goes to shit and the bands are said to "Sell Out".

Only when Rancid turned down the big record deal, then I saw one of the few.

Greenday was never punk, they just act it. And then they write a record about American Idiots and standing up for lesser people? While driving to the studio in their Benz and after a tapping of MTV Cribs.

AFI was punk until you voted for them on TRL.

"AFI was punk until you voted for them on TRL."

That's classic!